Interview with the Author of the Winning Mural Project

You are the winner of the MuraLOVE WPiA UW mural competition, studying painting at the Academy of Fine Arts. To begin with, tell me, is this the first art competition in which you have participated and achieved significant success?

I had previously participated in a competition in Jabłonna, also for a mural. Jabłonna is my commune; I live there, so I decided to take part. And I also managed to win, so this is my second such adventure this year.

Were there more of them this year?

No, no, actually, it was only recently, while attending the Academy of Fine Arts, that I decided it might be time to start participating in all those competitions promoted by our secretariats and dean's offices.

Were the WPiA UW mural competition also promoted at the Academy of Fine Arts?

No, unfortunately this one was not announced, but I simply have friends here at the Faculty who, knowing that I had already won in Jabłonna and that I have recently been involved with these murals, sent me the information and told me: “participate!”

It's great that you took the advice, because everyone I spoke to highly praised the winning design. I admit it was my favourite. It's very distinctive, colourful, especially when compared to most of the entries qualified for voting – it's a completely different concept. But what do you think it is about your designs that generates such interest, either among the voters, the committee selecting projects for the next stage, or the competition jury?

Generally, when creating my art, my paintings (lately I've also been working on stained glass and animation), it's very natural for me to use highly saturated, intense colours. And it seems to me that nowadays not everyone uses such hues, because we are accustomed to everything being beige or white, some grey-black. The reason – this type of colour scheme is associated with seriousness. My approach is that the intensity of colours makes the space a little more enjoyable and cheerful to inhabit. We should open ourselves to such colours after this, let's say, "beige era". And it seems to me that people are simply thirsty for this. Similarly, perhaps, they are thirsty for concepts that are not entirely serious, because I know my design wasn't necessarily super serious. Themis depicted as a mermaid, although she has a serious expression and so on, may evoke some amusement, but I believe that a university is not a place where one should be exclusively super serious, because it is, after all, a place for young people. Young people, by definition, like humour. And it's not just young people; generally, people like humour. I have the impression that jokes and a certain sense of playfulness are things that make us feel socially connected. I don't want to attribute great philosophy to this, but I think people often choose murals that are "lighter". The large dimensions of rooms or walls, poor lighting, and grand architecture, which is common in Poland, especially when we talk about university buildings, already set a specific mood. If you then add such a pompous, serious mural, the atmosphere can become overwhelming. And it is precisely such lightness that proves beneficial in this situation.

It is clear that murals in general, having moved indoors from shared public spaces, were intended to beautify city streets and positively impact us in our daily lives. You said that it is not really a grand philosophy, or at least you would not describe it as such. Nevertheless, your project seems to be a manifesto, as the muted colours of the so-called "beige mom" era have indeed come to dominate home interiors, rendering individuals surrounded by such aesthetics somewhat anonymous. Yet, the Faculty did not organise a competition to select a work devoid of character. The space we inhabit, the space we move through, is an expression of our personality. Everything tells us something about ourselves, right? In my opinion, it is incredibly insightful that this is reflected in what you say and create. Well, you have already somewhat answered my next question, but I wanted to know what kind of art you practice on a daily basis? You mentioned stained glass...

I am a painting student at the Academy of Fine Arts, and our field is characterised by the fact that, in addition to painting and drawing, which are, so to speak, the most important subjects in our studies (because they simply carry the most ECTS points and theoretically we are supposed to spend the most time on them), there are many things one can try under the supervision of our educators. This year, we had a university assignment that involved taking any object and creating it using a technique and material that would subvert everything about that object, turning it into its opposite. I made a ball out of glass, specifically stained glass – I had always wanted to learn how to make them. My artistic idols, such as Wyspiański and Alfons Mucha, created stained glass. In modernism, it was very popular for artists to design in their own style, rather than necessarily for a specific church or commission. I was always drawn to this technique because the colours and the light shining through them were, in a way, enchanting to me. So, I finally decided to buy glass, copper tape, solder, etc. It is not a simple technique; it takes a lot of time and requires prolonged effort, and additionally, one can either cut oneself or get burned by the soldering iron, so it is challenging. That covers the physical problems. Nevertheless, it is certainly very satisfying when one holds the stained glass up to the light, and it suddenly becomes very beautiful. So far, I have completed this one project, "the stained-glass sphere", as I call it.

Glass Ball!

Yes, indeed! Because it's a basketball, my friend laughed and asked if one could predict the outcome of a match with it. That would be quite amusing. Now, with the prize money from Jabłonna, I've bought myself a glass grinder to actually be able to make better stained glass, and not just assemble puzzles, so to speak. I've only just started my second project, so I'm still a bit new to it, but it certainly brings me a lot of joy.

Now, I understand you already have a diamond cutter?

Yes, I certainly had a diamond cutter with my first sphere. But sometimes it was not always possible to achieve a perfect shape, and then trimming it by about 2 mm with a diamond cutter was almost impossible. One had to start anew, but now I do not have such a problem since I obtained this grinder.

Thank you for sharing these experiences, as I know that stained glass is rarely discussed, yet it is a truly unique art form.

Well, because it is a technique that few people teach. I actually received some help from my drawing professor's assistant, who had some experience with it. But in reality, I had to figure out most of how to do everything myself. There are tutorials online, but few people start with three-dimensional stained glass, so it was a bit like diving into the deep end. That is why there are not many guides for 3D stained glass – simply because few people make them.

Do you recall the stained glass workshop in Kraków?

I ponder on it, but I have somewhat of an issue in that there are many things I would like to try and create. It is a bit of a cliché, but a day only has 24 hours, and ideally, 8 of those should be dedicated to sleep. There are so many artistic disciplines, and each is more intriguing than the last. It is simply very difficult to choose something and devote enough time to it to master a particular technique, because, for example, I am equally fond of animation. This year I completed my first quite substantial project independently. That also consumes a vast amount of effort to produce even a 3-minute film. So, naturally, if one adds stained glass, and one still has to paint, because I am studying painting, and one still has to draw, because I have drawing classes, and then animation – well, then one simply begins to run a little short on time.

Do you therefore have something of a modernist artist within you, someone who simply requires many different sources of inspiration, many different art forms, to even attempt to express themselves in the way they desire?

It is certainly just interesting – trying different things. I think that is wonderful about being an artist.

All right, so let’s quickly return to the competition. When applying, were you motivated by any other reasons apart from, for example, the prize? After all, PLN 10,000 is not a small sum for a student.

I have many friends studying law. I attended a high school profile with advanced civics, history, and mathematics, so a few people I knew from high school wrote to me asking if I wanted to participate. They simply shared information about this competition with me as soon as it was announced, even before the regulations were available. This gave me time to consider my participation. I was primarily encouraged by the fact that people wrote to me, and perhaps I wanted to please them–I do not know, for them to see the work of someone they know and be able to say: "Oh, my friend did this." But also, generally, when I have time, I simply try to apply for such initiatives. I do not think the prize was even the main goal. Of course, it is nice and enjoyable to receive it, and I am very happy, but primarily I wanted to present my work at a large faculty where so many of my friends study. Many people pass through there; perhaps someone will be interested.

This is especially important for an emerging artist; you are strictly tying your future to this, aren't you?

Precisely, I am not sure exactly what I want to tie it to; in the sense of artistic activity, yes, but I don't know if I will be designing many murals in the future – we shall see. Especially since, when it comes to murals, these are usually competitions, so ultimately the best work will win. And it's not as though one frequently receives commissions for such undertakings. More often, a competition is organised, so the fact that I have some experience is good for me, because I might succeed in the next one, but I am not building a reputation as a good muralist.

I copied your statement from our post about the resolved competition. It's great that you provided this description at all, because thanks to it, more people could learn a bit more about your artistic concept and what you wanted to convey through this mural.

I laugh a little because I feel that I wasn't able to say much from myself. However, I somewhat started from the assumption that in this text I am actually describing what everyone can see in the visualisation. I had no idea at all, because there wasn't really any deep philosophy behind it, so in fact I simply described what is in the design, why I chose such colours and why the composition looks a certain way, but I think I had little to say about the idea itself. Or so I think.

From this description, and indeed from the mural itself, there emerges, at least in my personal opinion, a clear reference primarily to the city with which the Faculty of Law and Administration of the University of Warsaw is associated. On the one hand, a touch of local patriotism is awakened here; on the other, we have Themis, a mythological and allegorical reference firmly established in culture to the values upheld by the Faculty. Hence my next question: for what reason did precisely this tradition of the Faculty of Law and Administration of the University of Warsaw prevail over modernity here? Or perhaps it was a purely aesthetic decision?

I must be very honest and say that there must have been some miscommunication, because there was nothing written in the regulations about what should be on the mural, and in the post, I learned that the mural could refer to blah, blah, blah… all those things it could refer to. So, I assumed that the mural could, but did not have to, refer to them. My approach to the competition in Jabłonna was different. I am a resident of the municipality, and when I started, I referred to my everyday life. I run in the park depicted in my mural, I included a part of the local community, runners, in the project, I referred to the history associated with this park, etc. I had that live experience, so I could show how my life looks in that place, but here? I am, after all, from outside the Faculty. I saw that a lot of people referred to rockets, and I have no idea why. If there were so many such projects, then I assume there is indeed something about these rockets at the Faculty. Perhaps a student research club or something similar, but from my perspective, this is information to which I do not have access. I could not really rely on knowledge about the technologies used at the Faculty of Law and Administration of the University of Warsaw because I am not a student there. Therefore, I referred more to the idea of law itself and to Warsaw, where, admittedly, I do not live, but I study, so at least to some extent, I am able to understand this part emotionally and conceptually. Besides, to be honest, I think I generally do not much like new technologies. I mean, I like them for things like drawing, because I animate in a drawing program, I draw on a tablet, so I cannot say that I am not interested in new technologies. This will be terrible to admit, but I simply did not notice that there was anything about modernity; I mean, I saw that it was the University of Warsaw, law, Warsaw, Themis, the Mermaid of Warsaw – so Themis with the Mermaid – a combination, boom! – there's an idea. I read everything, but those words just seemed to flash by me. Especially because they were listed after the word "may." And if I had referred to everything that was written there, then indeed it would probably have been too much. But I will not lie, it was probably just due to my inattention; I did not notice it.

I was absolutely not trying to suggest any oversight or oversight, I was just curious whether it was a conscious decision, or…?

It was a semi-conscious decision.

It turned out really well! Because, indeed, I have the impression that if anything else had appeared in the design, it would have been totally overdone. As it is, indeed: there was a foreground, there was a background, a specific composition, just as you described. Moreover, no one else came up with the combination of Themis and the Mermaid, at least in the works that were submitted for evaluation by the wider public.

I really liked, for example, those murals that used light from the window. Especially the one that was probably in fifth place, with a boy climbing the stairs and the light falling from the window – I liked that one. I think that because I don't visit Lipowa every day, I didn't notice that option. I have to admit that someone actually used those windows. I, for my part, simply created a design adapted to what I knew about the place, what I knew about the university, and one that could even appear on my mental horizon, so to speak.

Dobra, ostatnie pytanie, które mam do ciebie, ale to jest takie pytanie z dwoma pytajnikami, bo- cóż, wszyscy wiemy, że jest pewna kontrowersja dotycząca prac dopuszczonych do konkursu, która wyniknęła w trakcie głosowania. Czy możemy liczyć na komentarz? Co uważasz na temat nadsyłania wygenerowanych prac? I czy ewentualnie, no właśnie jako też przyszła artystka, masz jakiś pomysł może, co ewentualnie byłoby dobrym rozwiązaniem w takich konkursach? Czy może wystarczy jasny punkt regulaminu o zakazie, czy w ogóle należy przemyśleć robienie dla wygenerowanych prac oddzielnych konkursów, jeśli w ogóle tutaj można mówić o jakimkolwiek konkurowaniu…

I would be very happy to comment on this matter. I will start with the latter point. Regarding the creation of a separate competition, I somewhat fail to see the purpose, because a mural competition is not strictly an artistic competition. It is a competition for the design and execution of something that will subsequently exist in public space. If we are to assume the use of these works, then I believe they should compete with each other. As can be seen, human-executed projects win - people are negatively disposed towards AI, and I believe rightly so. I think that such works should generally not be admitted for several reasons. Primarily, of course, for ethical reasons. AI is currently a very controversial technology. I want to stress that I am referring to generative AI here, not, for example, specialised AI that analyses medical test results, with which researchers try to find a cure for cancer, etc. That is a different situation than generative AI, which is made available for public use. I do not use AI because it is not necessary for my studies. I generally do not feel the need to use artificial intelligence personally either. I think it is even good that such works were included in this competition and lost - it simply shows the attitude towards such projects. Of course, in the next competition, it would be advisable (and from what I know, this is already planned) for such works not to be admitted to the competition. People have expressed their opinion on this matter. But as for the fact that this issue emerged at all and its visible outcome, how much people have shown that they do not agree to such works participating in the competition, it may be good that such a controversy arose from it. The organisers are able to see how negative public opinion is on this subject. This is one issue - ethics and public opinion. The second issue is that generated works are often immediately produced in visualisation form. That is, there is no project like the one I submitted, for example, which was simply the shape of a wall on a white or transparent background. The drawing is immediately projected onto the wall, which sometimes alters its shape. In some projects, the shape of the wall does not even resemble the original. If there is no project that the executing company can apply, measure, and dimensionally check for themselves, it creates problems for the contractors. The third issue – AI in public space simply makes it uglier. In the sense that it makes it increasingly unattractive. Generated advertisements on television, the internet, on the street… I walk down, let’s say, a street where there are many food stalls, and on each one there are AI advertisements – pictures of food taken by artificial intelligence. Why? This automatically repels me from such a burger joint or cafe. Make that latte with that pattern, place it on that table, clear up the space, and you have a photo. I don’t see what the problem is, especially since we have phones that really take good photos, and you don’t even need a camera. I also have the impression that because everyone can create something with AI, a wonderful social phenomenon like barter is disappearing. A restaurant can invite a certain artist for some free burgers, and in return, the artist will create a few drawings for the menu. And even if there is no money to pay them, I think that at least some artists would gladly agree to a bartering arrangement. Even purely voluntarily! Of course, artists should not be forced into such things, but certainly, an artist who receives a proposition from their favourite restaurant or cafe will gladly agree to create graphics for them in exchange for a coffee. I have noticed this mainly in bubble tea shops – drawings created by people who enjoy coming there are hanging on the walls. Drawings hung on the wall for free!

I mean, these are good drawings, these are great drawings.

Yes! Exactly. People are happy to create art for free for causes they care about. And there's another issue, a legal one, actually – copyright problems. Algorithms feed on the work of people who haven't consented to it. In the context of a mural competition, a situation could arise where someone receives money, and a considerable amount of money at that, for simply entering a prompt. Even if such a person had thought it through, even if they had a clear concept of what they wanted the AI to create, they are still using the work of people who have not agreed to have their work used. It seems to me that several projects were photomontages; I don't know if AI was involved, but we still don't know if these individuals had the rights to use the given images. I don't know if they were stock photos, and if they were, whether someone paid for access to these materials, or simply removed the watermark? In my opinion, copyright issues are very controversial matters. I do not use AI, I do not use other people's photos. One could still speak of inspiration, but that is also controversial – let's say we take a photo and paint it ourselves on canvas, without a projector, etc. Is it actually still just inspiration? I don't know if it's worth mentioning, but there was one competition participant who stated that she did not use AI, but only AI tools built into Photoshop. She claims that graphic designers normally use them and it's impossible to use the program without these functions. And that's simply not true. I know how to use Photoshop. If you use AI tools, you are using AI. It would be like inserting a Chat GPT function into Word, making it possible to select a fragment of text and give the command "simplify" – that would be using AI. An artificial intelligence tool uses artificial intelligence, so the entire work contains at least elements of AI. I once had much more radical views on artificial intelligence. Nevertheless, I see examples of its sensible use in art. For example, in animation – a person working on it independently often lacks funding. It is very unfortunate that such a person has to use AI, because they cannot afford to do the project themselves, but that is how it is. Instead of hiring a person to draw frames between the key ones to make the animation smoother. This is not always necessary; I, for one, do not do it, but I see the sense in it. Especially if it were specialised AI. It seems to me that an algorithm could be created that would be trained exclusively on the one animation it would be working on, and thus would also be more ethical. But the use of AI in a mural, the design of which can be done in a few hours? That is a time that can certainly be dedicated. Because it is known – one person wins the competition, and all the rest worked for free. It's a bit of a gamble when it comes to artistic work, but we all agree to it.

Absolutely! It's been a great conversation, but I think we unfortunately have to conclude. This was an interview with Lena Pachocińska, who, during the meeting, shared information about herself, her art, and the principles that guide her in the face of constantly evolving technology. Thank you for your participation in both this competition and this conversation. Good luck in future competitions!